True Cold Air Intake = Not a good idea.... [Archive] - GTAN - Automotive Site & Network - Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, Guelph, Brantford and Golden Triangle Area

Pharaoh

12-03-2007, 12:16 PM

Hey Guys,

I have a true cold air intake on my car, goes right down low, close to the ground......and my car is lowered :(

So I am driving home last night from the gf's and its raining, combined with snow melting.....there are DEEP puddles everwhere.

Not really thinking about it too much, I go through them as normal...

2 minutes down the road, the car starts bogging down and dying. When I push the gas pedal it does nothing....until the car just stops in mid motion...

At this point I knew that the cold air intake must have sucked up some water and it went through to the engine. So anyways, I am pulled over with my 4 ways on, I try to start the car, and it turns over but then turns right off again.

So I try starting it again....it turns over and then I push the gas a bit to hold the RPM's up so it won't stop. The car is struggling to stay on..

Anyways this continued for about 10 minutes, until thank God it started holding a solid idle, and I barely made it home. Then about a block from my house it happened again.....it shut off.

But thank God, I was going about 50......so I was able to cruise it into my driveway. So anyways, I was dead tired last night so I left it, thank God I was off this morning....so I started it up again, same problem with the not holding an idle or whatever, but thankfully I think all the water is out now....so its all good.

But inconclusion, True Cold Air Intakes are no good.... :(

BananaClipper

12-03-2007, 12:19 PM

I have a cold air as well that goes right down to the fender.
Isn't there some kind of plastic guard infront of it before the ground to avoid situations like this? I know the sentra has something like that.

But yes I agree CAI's going that low is never good in slushy weather. That is why I switched to a SRI this winter to avoid anything if it did happen.

Riddle_Rob

12-03-2007, 12:19 PM

yes they are. When you dont use them in the winter OR you use a proper filter. They have cone filters with the plastic heat sheild on them. They will help your problem a bit. And Dan, I have spare intake piping if you want to make a shorty.

Pharaoh

12-03-2007, 12:21 PM

Where do I get that? Cause I was almost stranded cause of this shit

crxforum

12-03-2007, 12:23 PM

You have a good chance of hydrolocking your engine. You might be a lot worse off than you think.

CRX Forum

Sebastien

12-03-2007, 12:32 PM

If your engine is damaged and needs replacing I'm probably your cheapest engine swapper for the quality.

This is why most guys switch from a CAI to a SRI for the winter. Or, you could be like me and run the stocker with the box 'ported' for flow and the air filter replaced with the K&N. Has the same effects as a CAI on a stock engine.

adam_a

12-03-2007, 12:39 PM

im running a cai.. its maybe 2 inches from the bottom of my bumper and when i see a puddle the 4 ways come on and i go around the big ass puddel....sorry to hear of your luck last night dan

Timberland

12-03-2007, 01:08 PM

but thankfully I think all the water is out now....so its all good.(

The problem isn't the water being stuck in the engine, it's the damage the water did while it was in there. Judging by your story, I would be very surprised if your motor didn't suffer severe internal damage. Keep a very close eye on it, and be prepared for the worst.

kills

12-03-2007, 01:20 PM

can't compress water you know

SiR

12-03-2007, 01:22 PM

This is why they put a sticker on the CAIs stating they are not to be used in slush, snow or fairly deep water. They do make those guards for them, and also some have a breather so that if the filter does get submerged, the intake can still suck in air and NOT water.
That's a crappy situation Dan, and I definitely hope for you that there is no major damage to the engine.

crxforum

12-03-2007, 01:34 PM

can't compress water you know

Water can be compressed, but very very little. There are machines that use water instead of oil in hydraulic pumps. Not many, but there are some. For example hydro demolition machines etc. I have one for sale if anyone is interested :P.

Dan I sure hope that nothing is seriously wrong with your engine. At this time of the year it is a lot worse than in summer time. If there is still water in there it will freeze and expand and can cause even more damage. You have to be very careful.

CRX Forum

Sebastien

12-03-2007, 02:36 PM

Remove your spark plugs and turn the car over a bunch of times. Let the car sit for a few hours in a warm garage. Spray wd40 into each cylinder before it sits and turn the engine over. Allow it to fully dry off.

Then replace the sparkplugs with new one. Then try turning it over with spark plugs and hopefully she should start and not be to seriously damaged.

People talk about water causing damage but it's the pressure created by and engine with 4000rpm that it forced to compress water. That forces seals to give (compression rings) and worst case scenario connecting rods bend. Check your oil. You might have water in there which is a sign of hydrolock.

Good luck man.

AccordEX

12-03-2007, 02:54 PM

As the others stated dont you have like a cover at the bottom? which kind of covers from the front bumper back a 2 or 3 feet? And if all goes well and your car is fine you should really think about putting your stock intake box back on or a SRI if you really want to.

Pharaoh

12-03-2007, 02:59 PM

oh man, I hope its going to be ok :( I can't afford problems right now :(

JPE16

12-03-2007, 04:43 PM

$10 on fucked plugs
$5 on a bent valve.

memo to anyone else with a cai..if you ever drive through a puddle and suck some water up and ur car dies....the worst thing you can do is try and start it....do what ludersv said above immediately...water WILL NOT compress....everything else will be forced to move in ways it wasnt meant to in order to compensate....

sorry bout ur luck.

maximumtorque

12-03-2007, 04:57 PM

i have heard of things that you can purchase near the end of the piping that will only allow air to come one way but nothing to enter the other way. its like a reversed filter kinda thing. i have seen sooo many guys wreck there motors cause of this. once the water gets sucked up, thats it, your motor is fucked. well i hope this isn't the case here but i would get it checked out before its too late.

wparsons

12-03-2007, 07:06 PM

Just a little heads up for the future, or for anyone else...

if you EVER suspect you sucked up water, or hit water and the engine is bogging, struggling, anything.. Shut it right off and do what Seb suggested.. Pull all the plugs out, and crank it over a bunch of times, then spray WD40 in all cylinders, dry out the spark plugs, let it sit for a bit, then put it all together and try to fire it up.

If you did suck up water, and continued to crank, you'll be VERY lucky if you didn't bend a rod or mash a piston.

JPE16

12-03-2007, 07:10 PM

^^someone neglected to read the post two above his own....lol

but yeah....thought it was common knowledge not to start ur car when u hydrolock it.....

WATER WONT COMPRESS

Nikiterzts

12-03-2007, 07:22 PM

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j306/NikiterZTS/ohlawdfm6.gif

Ralliart

12-03-2007, 08:50 PM

i was running a CAI but switched back to the stock intake system for the winter.....safer that way lol

Jamie

12-03-2007, 10:47 PM

^^ makes sense... I had the same problem with my civic when i drove it when it was raining. My cai was about 4'' off the ground, but everytime it rained my engine light would come on, but as soon as it stopped raining, light would turn off, so i tried not to drive my car in the rain :( oh well, car is gone now.

Dejan33

12-03-2007, 11:09 PM

Do what Seb suggested, and if that doesn't work, it looks like you may have some engine damage the best thing to do after that is to send it to the mechanic and pray.

mx3autozam

12-04-2007, 06:21 AM

Believe me I know all about Hydrolocking...,lol Not really fun....Happened on a mint and crazy fast klze. Heres the outcome

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/mx3autozam/hydrolock/DSC00490.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/mx3autozam/hydrolock/DSC00492.jpg

And heres a video of it with 2 bent rods. Then all of a sudden the noise went away and then BANG rod flies out of the side of the block. This was not caused by water tho. It was from gasoline, injector o ring was leaking hardcore.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/mx3autozam/th_7ac709b3.jpg (http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l227/mx3autozam/?action=view&current=7ac709b3.flv)

Pharaoh

12-04-2007, 11:27 AM

Well good nes guys...the car is running great, idles great. Drove it to work fine.

Thank God, all is well.

Nikiterzts

12-04-2007, 11:35 AM

did you switch that CAI yet for the stock box yet?

Pharaoh

12-04-2007, 11:36 AM

^^^Naw.....I have the stock one in a million pieces in my garage somewhere.....

I will probably change it to an SRI for the winter, or get this shield thing that people are talking about.

CivNick

12-04-2007, 11:36 AM

http://www.tirerack.com/images/intake/medium/aem_ABV20401S.jpg

Pharaoh

12-04-2007, 11:37 AM

^^^What is that?

Nikiterzts

12-04-2007, 11:38 AM

that is actually what people put in the middle of CAI pipe to prevent the water to go into your manifold....the only thing is....you will have to get some cutting done

Pharaoh

12-04-2007, 11:42 AM

Where do I get it from? About how much is it? and what kind of cutting?

Sebastien

12-04-2007, 11:47 AM

that is actually what people put in the middle of CAI pipe to prevent the water to go into your manifold....the only thing is....you will have to get some cutting done

Those things suck balls. Too many people on honda tech say they have sucked in the foam into there intakes.

Just run a SRI for the winter.

Nikiterzts

12-04-2007, 12:18 PM

^^ lol

Dima

12-04-2007, 12:36 PM

guys, here's something interesting
everyone saying that water is bad for your engine, well i guess too much of it is. i rememeber in one of my autotech classes teacher actually told us, if you have a motor with high kilometers you can take a windex bottle filled with water, open your air box and spray water in it and rev the engine up, when water gets in to the cylinders which have combustion going on in them, water will become steam and clean the carbon out, when you do this there should be tons of gray smoke coming out of the tail pipe
i remeber i did this on my cavalier, i could actually feel it run little bit better

Riddle_Rob

12-04-2007, 01:02 PM

Like I said Dan, I have spare pieces of intake if you need.

Nikiterzts

12-04-2007, 01:42 PM

Sol_searchin

12-04-2007, 01:42 PM

how bout you take a pail of water and pour it onto your filter and rev the engine tell me what happens :D Your comparing mist to a puddle. The circular thing you guys are talking about it called a bybass valve many friends of mine have been using it and never had a problem. Just to be safe id run a short ram but up 2 you! dan this is a warning for your to switch it up cuz next time you wont be so lucky !

guys, here's something interesting
everyone saying that water is bad for your engine, well i guess too much of it is. i rememeber in one of my autotech classes teacher actually told us, if you have a motor with high kilometers you can take a windex bottle filled with water, open your air box and spray water in it and rev the engine up, when water gets in to the cylinders which have combustion going on in them, water will become steam and clean the carbon out, when you do this there should be tons of gray smoke coming out of the tail pipe
i remeber i did this on my cavalier, i could actually feel it run little bit better

Dima

12-04-2007, 01:48 PM

yeah man, seriously why not just get a shorter intake, one in my probe it does go down, but it goes nowhere near wher eit can get splashed, and has the tin cover on it

kills

12-04-2007, 02:19 PM

Its okay to have just a spray of water or rain and such, but when your filter gets submerged in water and sucks up a whole lot, it will do damage.

Sol_searchin

12-04-2007, 02:56 PM

Its okay to have just a spray of water or rain and such, but when your filter gets submerged in water and sucks up a whole lot, it will do damage.

Reallly?!

AccordEX

12-04-2007, 03:16 PM

Its okay to have just a spray of water or rain and such, but when your filter gets submerged in water and sucks up a whole lot, it will do damage.

What if i get my garden hose and spray water on the filter to clean it while the filter is connected to the intake pipe and the car is idling ?.

crxforum

12-04-2007, 03:19 PM

How about this idea. If the car is running and you spray water into the motor or air filter area its not a smart idea. If you do it when nothing is running and you wait a while for it to dry off then you should be fine.

Water in motor = bad idea.

CRX Forum

2point2

12-04-2007, 04:54 PM

does you car run a MAF? probably got a bit of water on it.

Earx95LT1

12-05-2007, 02:55 AM

:)Hey Guys,

I have a true cold air intake on my car, goes right down low, close to the ground......and my car is lowered :(

So I am driving home last night from the gf's and its raining, combined with snow melting.....there are DEEP puddles everwhere.

Not really thinking about it too much, I go through them as normal...

2 minutes down the road, the car starts bogging down and dying. When I push the gas pedal it does nothing....until the car just stops in mid motion...

At this point I knew that the cold air intake must have sucked up some water and it went through to the engine. So anyways, I am pulled over with my 4 ways on, I try to start the car, and it turns over but then turns right off again.

So I try starting it again....it turns over and then I push the gas a bit to hold the RPM's up so it won't stop. The car is struggling to stay on..

Anyways this continued for about 10 minutes, until thank God it started holding a solid idle, and I barely made it home. Then about a block from my house it happened again.....it shut off.

But thank God, I was going about 50......so I was able to cruise it into my driveway. So anyways, I was dead tired last night so I left it, thank God I was off this morning....so I started it up again, same problem with the not holding an idle or whatever, but thankfully I think all the water is out now....so its all good.

But inconclusion, True Cold Air Intakes are no good.... :(

Well good nes guys...the car is running great, idles great. Drove it to work fine.

Thank God, all is well.

Dan you "thank god." alot you ever want to become a preacher when you grew up lol haha just playin with ya buddy !

lol Glad everything turned out alright for ya man!!!:)

kills

12-05-2007, 05:00 AM

What if i get my garden hose and spray water on the filter to clean it while the filter is connected to the intake pipe and the car is idling ?.

I'm just saying water in small amounts is okay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

mx3autozam

12-05-2007, 06:18 AM

Anyone see the pics of my engine. thats Hydrolock...thats what water does!!

Pharaoh

12-05-2007, 12:02 PM

:)

Dan you "thank god." alot you ever want to become a preacher when you grew up lol haha just playin with ya buddy !

lol Glad everything turned out alright for ya man!!!:)

lol, Thanks man....and ya I thank God a lot!!!.....because everything that happens to me is a miracle...

I'm just saying water in small amounts is okay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)

Now I know people are going to say this is in my head or whatever.....but for the past couple of days the car has been running great.....it seems actually better then before.

It is quieter, it idles a lot strong.....just overall running better IMO

vdubvento

12-05-2007, 01:49 PM

Pharaoh

12-05-2007, 01:55 PM

^^^Where can I get them and how much do they run?

crxforum

12-05-2007, 01:56 PM

Get an AEM Bypass valve... this is exactly for cars using CAI's and are running them in areas of mucho precipitation. Goes inbetween the MAF and beginning of intake.

http://upload.generationdub.com/images/air_bypass_valve_pic2.jpg

Thats already been covered on this page. There are a lot of people who complain that they deteriorate and get foam sucked into the engine.

Like Fram products with paper breaking off and getting sucked into the engine.

CRX Forum

crxforum

12-05-2007, 01:56 PM

^^^Where can I get them and how much do they run?

You can get them at pretty much any place that sells intakes. With the exception of Canadian tire. Price will depend on what one you exactly get and what make etc.

CRX Forum

vdubvento

12-05-2007, 02:00 PM

^^^Where can I get them and how much do they run?

Fuck if I know lol

Thats already been covered on this page. There are a lot of people who complain that they deteriorate and get foam sucked into the engine.

Like Fram products with paper breaking off and getting sucked into the engine.

CRX Forum

Didn't know that, I just quickly scanned the thread and figured this would be a good product... secure some mesh on the inside and then you can prolly keep yourself from having foam being sucking into the head.

Riddle_Rob

12-05-2007, 02:02 PM

I clean Honeywell, the factory where they make Fram products. Man, they have one of the best quality control units I've ever seen. I'm suprised to hear that.

Sebastien

12-05-2007, 02:48 PM

I clean Honeywell, the factory where they make Fram products. Man, they have one of the best quality control units I've ever seen. I'm suprised to hear that.

Quality contol is to make sure the product off the line does what it's suppose to do and also fits correctly. You still can't avoid the fact that the paper itself is not the greatest.

fast50mpg

12-05-2007, 02:54 PM

id like one of u to actually show me a cai sucking in enough water to hydro lock.

Pharaoh

12-05-2007, 03:05 PM

^^^Sorry bro....I am not putting my car through that again.....lol

fast50mpg

12-05-2007, 04:40 PM

most likely it just saturated the filter therefor restricting airflow. i'd say its impossible to lock an engine from a cai going through puddles

vdubvento

12-05-2007, 05:27 PM

Ya the intake filter would have to be submerged in it.

Pharaoh

12-05-2007, 05:47 PM

lol, I may not have been clear......these weren't regular puddles.

Like they were deep, and I didn't realize how deep until I got into them. But they were about a foot and a half or so......which isn't good when my CAI sits about half a foot above the ground.

Sol_searchin

12-05-2007, 06:22 PM

Give me your car i will spray the filter with a hose and you rev it up and will see what happens. I guess you havnt been around smart people that run CAI in the winter time :D its simple an intake is an intake if any unreasonable amount of water enter the intake the motor will hydrolock ive seen it before many times over!
most likely it just saturated the filter therefor restricting airflow. i'd say its impossible to lock an engine from a cai going through puddles

Sol_searchin

12-05-2007, 06:23 PM

And if u mean small puddles that we go through on a regular rain day then my bad but you get my point.

fast50mpg

12-06-2007, 07:20 AM

i run a cai too, unless u were in the puddles going slow and entire filter was under water then u may have a problem.

Sebastien

12-06-2007, 08:02 AM

i run a cai too, unless u were in the puddles going slow and entire filter was under water then u may have a problem.

You must not of been driving the day he was. I drove that day and yes, there was parts of the road that had easily 12 inches of water. Heavy rain + snow clogged sewer drain didn't help the situation. I was happy I was in the Kia. Hello stock.

wparsons

12-06-2007, 09:19 AM

most likely it just saturated the filter therefor restricting airflow. i'd say its impossible to lock an engine from a cai going through puddles

I know one person for sure that hydrolocked an engine from a puddle, but that same night(from the same puddble) 4 others sucked in some water and sustained no damage.

The one was an EG civic with a GSR engine, it mashed up badly. One of the lucky guys had an S2000 with the AEM CAI(if you look at it, the filter is almost on the ground). It shot water out of the plug holes, but the engine was fine after clearing it out.

Sebastien

12-06-2007, 09:26 AM

I know one person for sure that hydrolocked an engine from a puddle, but that same night(from the same puddble) 4 others sucked in some water and sustained no damage.

The one was an EG civic with a GSR engine, it mashed up badly. One of the lucky guys had an S2000 with the AEM CAI(if you look at it, the filter is almost on the ground). It shot water out of the plug holes, but the engine was fine after clearing it out.

I remember reading that on VM. Adam (Webz) has also been victim of hydrolock before with his Probe.

fast50mpg

12-06-2007, 10:04 AM

again, it would have to be submerged in water

wparsons

12-06-2007, 11:44 AM

^^ oh it was, the water was easily deeper than the bottom of the engine.

fast50mpg

12-06-2007, 01:02 PM

ok.

Sebastien

12-06-2007, 01:19 PM

ok.

Also remember it doesn't take much to lock up an engine.

About .5L in 1 cylinder on a 2.0L engine is enough to kill it.

mx3autozam

12-06-2007, 01:35 PM

Also remember it doesn't take much to lock up an engine.

About .5L in 1 cylinder on a 2.0L engine is enough to kill it.

ya thats about what it took on mine...actually not even that much will cause it to lock up. I bet 250ml would do it.

Sebastien

12-06-2007, 01:48 PM

ya thats about what it took on mine...actually not even that much will cause it to lock up. I bet 250ml would do it.

All you need is enough for your engine to try and compress and resulting in a bent connecting rod.

2point2

12-06-2007, 02:37 PM

I know of a Honda crank that was BENT from hydro-lock.

fast50mpg

12-06-2007, 02:38 PM

wow i had no idea

2point2

12-06-2007, 06:46 PM

It's pretty common. Just watch the local forums after every major downpour.

mx3autozam

12-06-2007, 07:07 PM

Holy fuck...a crank got bent wow thats nuts!

JPE16

12-06-2007, 11:02 PM

it's completley possible...wate DOESNT compress...at all...so anyhting moving will break.

when you consider the average 4 cylinder has a cylinder bore of between say 90 and 110 mm and a stroke of 100-130mm...that's not alot of room to fill with water....and it would only tate enough to fill in the area between the top of the pison and the bottom of the head at TDC...ur left with a cylinder roughly 5mmx100mm around...and that is enough to bend a crank, break rods, wrist pins and everyhting else that should not be bent....
also when you consider that the filter is surrounded by a SIGNIFICANT low pressure area (vacuum)...it's not that hard to suck up that little bit of water needed to fuck up your day.

so yeah CAI's do make more power on 99% of the applications out there....and yes it usually is enough to justify the risk...but you do have to adjust you're driving and hope for a little help from the big guy upstairs that you dont hit a puddle....

it's up to the buyer....i personally run an SRI...but next summer will be running a CAI...soo..yeah it doesnt take much water all to fuck ur shit up...that's why it happens so often.

vdubvento

12-06-2007, 11:05 PM

That's why I'm glad there's no companys that make 'em for my car :D

fast50mpg

12-07-2007, 04:40 PM

SiR

12-07-2007, 04:51 PM

i dont think it happens as often as u think. u could spray a garden hose at your cai with the engine at 4000rpm and it wouldnt hydro lock. im not saying it wouldnt cause sputtering or the engine to stall out but it wouldnt do any damage.

Is this speaking from personal experience, or speculation? I, for one, will not be running my engine and spraying water at my CAI.

JPE16

12-07-2007, 05:42 PM

i dont think it happens as often as u think. u could spray a garden hose at your cai with the engine at 4000rpm and it wouldnt hydro lock. im not saying it wouldnt cause sputtering or the engine to stall out but it wouldnt do any damage.

ok...i'm not gona get into a big specualtive thing about this. The facts are:
1) It doesnt take much water to hydrolock an engine. For a visual respresentation, look at a can of pop. Less than a quarter of that in one cylinder will fuck ur shit up...BADLY.

2) there's either a map or maf sensore between the filter and throttle body. These dont like water AT ALL.

3) WATER DOESNT COMPRESS.... no matter if it's a little...alot...a little less than alot....alot more than a little...it doesnt compress...at all....u smack it in a confined space...and ur gonna break water ur smacking it with.

4)A cai pulls air into the motor. If there's water in front of the filter instead of air...guess what...it's gonna pull that in....

5)it happens VERY frequently....hell...how many of the people in this thread have had this happen to them or a friend...i've had three people hydrolock their engines with me around to see...and i've read about MANY more...

6)adam drives a toaster

Timberland

12-07-2007, 06:48 PM

i dont think it happens as often as u think. u could spray a garden hose at your cai with the engine at 4000rpm and it wouldnt hydro lock. im not saying it wouldnt cause sputtering or the engine to stall out but it wouldnt do any damage.

How confident are you in this? I would love to see you set a meet up where we can all watch you hose down your intake to prove your point.

Sebastien

12-07-2007, 07:19 PM

How confident are you in this? I would love to see you set a meet up where we can all watch you hose down your intake to prove your point.

I got 20 on the hydrolock.

wparsons

12-07-2007, 08:19 PM

Unless the filter is totally submerged you won't be sucking up water... Want proof, put a few pin holes in a straw and try to suck water through it.

It takes ALOT less energy to suck air in, even through a small hole, than it does to suck up water.

And I won't get into details, but 'fast50mpg' definitely knows his shit...

kills

12-07-2007, 10:37 PM

Probably having a turbo to go through makes a little bit of a difference too since the intake change gets heated and the actual intake tract is longer so the water would evaporate moreso. I'd be more worried about my maf getting screwed than hydrolocking from rain though.

JPE16

12-08-2007, 12:57 AM

Parsons:
Your analogy is interesting....but is hardly proof. In your example you have a sealed vessel with open ends. At one and you're creating a low pressure area by sucking with ur mouth and this in turn draws the liquid through the other end. You then suggest creating a a third (or more) hole in the vessel between the two points. This inno way represents the problem...it actually represents a solution. For your analogy to work you would have to take the CAI and dunk it in water, then make a hole at some point between the filter at the end and the manifold. This is what the by-pass valve that was mentioned earlier in the thread does. It allows another point of entry for air. Sort of how an elctric current iwll take the easiest path to a ground...the air will be drawn in through the path with the least resistance....SO it doesnt really apply to the point you were trying to prove...atall....

and how does he know anymore than the rest of us?

Kills:
Having a turbo will make a big difference. If the water didn't completley destroy the fins on your turbo (keep in mind the forces at play on those fins when dealing with air, let alone water. They are spinning REALLY fast.) it would get so aerated that it would likely make it to the cylinders as little more than a mist. A mist is digestible by an engine....a small amountof water is. The only risk a small amount of water would pose would be to mess up your Maf/map sensors. anyway...you're mostly right....

btw...i'm also an engineering student....so I'm doing a little more than specualting here...as pompous as that sounds, it's not inteded to be so.

wparsons

12-08-2007, 09:42 AM

Parsons:
Your analogy is interesting....but is hardly proof. In your example you have a sealed vessel with open ends. At one and you're creating a low pressure area by sucking with ur mouth and this in turn draws the liquid through the other end. You then suggest creating a a third (or more) hole in the vessel between the two points. This inno way represents the problem...it actually represents a solution. For your analogy to work you would have to take the CAI and dunk it in water, then make a hole at some point between the filter at the end and the manifold. This is what the by-pass valve that was mentioned earlier in the thread does. It allows another point of entry for air. Sort of how an elctric current iwll take the easiest path to a ground...the air will be drawn in through the path with the least resistance....SO it doesnt really apply to the point you were trying to prove...atall....

and how does he know anymore than the rest of us?

Enginerring student or not, my analogy was dead on... The point was that if theres a place to get air from, the engine will suck that in regardless of the filter being partially submerged. A straw is not physically the same as a CAI, since the filter isn't just open on the very end like the straw. If you put the bottom half of the filter into a puddle, the top half is still open to air(like the holes in the straw), and will suck in air and not water.

I would bet that you could submerge all but 1/4" of the filter element and still be 100% fine since air is substantially easier to suck up the intake tube than water is(as proved by the straw analogy)

The ONLY way you'll suck in water is if the filter is totally submerged and it can't suck in air anywhere.

If I had a CAI, and it wouldn't be a pain to clean/dry/oil the filter after(yes, lazy) I'd spray the filter down with a hose while the engine is running. There will easily be ALOT more air space than water, and it'll just suck in air and run just fine.

If you REALLY insist on a better straw analogy, take a straw and slice the end at an angle, and only partially submerge the open part and see if you have any luck sucking up water.

JPE16

12-08-2007, 10:27 AM

Parsons:
"The point was that if theres a place to get air from, the engine will suck that in regardless of the filter being partially submerged. "

Me:
"it actually represents a solution. For your analogy to work you would have to take the CAI and dunk it in water, then make a hole at some point between the filter at the end and the manifold. This is what the by-pass valve that was mentioned earlier in the thread does. It allows another point of entry for air. Sort of how an elctric current iwll take the easiest path to a ground...the air will be drawn in through the path with the least resistance"

I guess reading's over-rated. Lol I Thank you for reiterrrating my point. Their are ALOT of variables here. The surface area of the filter, the length of the CAI plumbing, the number and severity of bends, etc..

AEM figured all this out when they designed their bypass valve. It works on MOST cars very well when 40% of the filter element is covered in water. That is alot less than the roughly 90% you mentioned earlier ("I would bet that you could submerge all but 1/4" of the filter element and still be 100% fine".)

Anyway I'm not here to argue with you, the basic facts are that it takes ALOT less water to hydrolock an engine than you guys think. Some of you (coincidentally the ones who have experienced it first, or second-hand) know how easy it is. The point of this entire debate is not who's right or who's wrong, it's that people with CAI's need to be VERY carfeul while driving, unless they have a bypass valvle, or filter skirt.

SiR

12-08-2007, 10:45 AM

JPE16

12-08-2007, 11:26 AM

because they base their warnings on maths and sciences....not speculation...lol

fast50mpg

12-08-2007, 12:28 PM

I don't feel like getting involved in all of this too deeply, because I've already made my decision. But what I don't understand is, if it's not a big issue, then why does AEM put sticker's on their CAI kits stating specifically that you risk engine damage if you get your CAI too close to water?

because theres a lot of idiots out there that have no clue. it "could" happen. thats about it. theyre covering their ass.

because they base their warnings on maths and sciences....not speculation...lol

and youre one of them.

Sol_searchin

12-08-2007, 01:30 PM

Some of the things ive read in this post blow my mind. You dont need to submerge your filter for it to suck up water its been proven and done before no need to argue that your right because its a fact. AEM obviously puts the sticker on for there safety and for people so they know there IS a chance it COULD fuck up your engine. How the fuck do you compare an intake to a straw? thats like comparing a jet engine to a honda engine. The vaccum in an intake is very strong nothing compared to a straw and water. The end point in this thread is that water entering your CAI can hydrolock your motor it doesnt mean you drive through a puddle and it will, IT COULD ask any qualified mechanic as in qualified i mean with a licence not one of those i work at this shop mechanics.

vdubvento

12-08-2007, 03:09 PM

fast50mpg is a certified mechanic.... with a license. He works on cars that are 2x/3x as much as a lot of peoples cars here. Think Audi. :D

adam_a

12-08-2007, 03:20 PM

6)adam drives a toaster

:O what does this have to do with nething?

and i also know you watch me sleep at night

wparsons

12-08-2007, 03:57 PM

fast50mpg is a certified mechanic.... with a license. He works on cars that are 2x/3x as much as a lot of peoples cars here. Think Audi. :D

I'd go with 5x...

As for anyone claiming you just have to dip a small part of the filter into a puddle to suck up water, think about what you're saying...

Water is WAY heavier than air, and unless there is no way for air to get in, the engine will suck in whatever is easiest, so air.

I'm not going to get into calculations, but if you look at the surface area of a filter, and how little air an engine needs(cfm volume) at part throttle at the rpm's you'd typically be at when you hit a puddle cruising along(or better yet, at idle) and then look at how much of the filter you'd need to flow that required air, its a tiny amount. Just look at the size of the opening in the TB.

Sure, maybe at 7500rpm at WOT you might suck in some water with half the filter in the puddle, but in a realistic scenario, you'd have to fully submerge it .

JPE16

12-08-2007, 04:00 PM

just because he's a mechanic doesnt mean naything really...congratualtions...you can turn a wrench....if he can calculate how much water it would take to hydrolock pharoah's eclipse, based on the amount of vacuum being pulled, the intake being used ( i beleive it's a non V2 aem cai) and all other variables..and it's different than the number i get then ok..i'll listen..but he's speculating..has a hell of alot of gaull to say that i'm the one who's guessing. i'mnot guessing on this at all...it would take 271ml to hydrolock my motor across all four cylinders...and that amount of water is easily pulled through the filter at 43% submerged (thats 2 inches into the water...EASILY do-able)....so unless you've worked it out and can show me stfu and stfd.

sorry to get upset..but i hate it when people talk shit it's all speculation...work it out...and if i messed up and im wrong then i'll admit it...but i did figure it out..and it's EASY to hydrolock an engine...and it's happened to alot of people in the area..im not talking about people on other forums...not a friend of a firends cousin twice removed...but just ask people on the board....out of all the members i beleive we have two who've had a motor go due to water being sucked in the cai..and when you figure that maybe 40% of the membershave a cai..that's a pretty shitty ratio.

end rant

fast50mpg

12-10-2007, 07:51 AM

but guess what. it would have to suck all that water in in 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation. lets not forget though that the first cylinder water fills up is the end of that engine so it would have to take all that water in in one stroke. long story short...i still dont think you could find your way out of a wet paper bag.

2point2

12-10-2007, 10:29 AM

This thread is retarded and needs to be hydrolocked.

Sol_searchin

12-10-2007, 11:13 AM

Pharaoh

12-10-2007, 11:20 AM

Listen guys we have gone very far into this thread without personal insults.

Everything has been facts with examples which is good, so lets keep the insults out of here like they have been throughout the thread.

fast50mpg

12-10-2007, 11:57 AM

I also agree, If your licenced please dont embarass yourself because im guessing you have NO experience in this topic. This thread is FULL of assumptions. I said nothing about submerged filters at all, I said ANY substantial amount of water entering the intake will damage your motor PERIOD its a fact and not really a debate.

i dont embarass myself. i dont need experience with hydrolocked engines to explain why this is very hard to have happen. i say what i say based on what i KNOW rather than what ive heard other people SAY.

wparsons

12-10-2007, 12:07 PM

it would take 271ml to hydrolock my motor across all four cylinders...and that amount of water is easily pulled through the filter at 43% submerged (thats 2 inches into the water...EASILY do-able)....so unless you've worked it out and can show me stfu and stfd.

I'd seriously like to know how you came up with it being able to suck up that much water by submerging 2" of the filter...

I'm not going to do any math here because I'm lazy, but a 2.4L(Dan's engine, since I don't know which Sentra engine you have)) 4 cylinder at idle or close to it is going to be sucking in a very small volume of air, even if its at 30in of vacuum. The surface area of the filter required to pull in that much air is also going to be small, which means that even if its mostly submerged theres still enough clear filter to suck in air. Since water is substantially denser than air, the path of least resistance is to suck in air.

You're also forgetting the physical distance it has to elevate the water, lifting water the 18" or so from the filter to the TB takes even more energy, whereas pulling air up that height doesn't take any more energy than sucking it horizontally.

Want to shut me up, figure out the CFM of air going into the engine at cruising rpm(so likely, just above idle), and also the amount of vacuum being produced at that point, then figure out how much air the filter will flow at 43% submerged(again, your figure). If the airflow requirements of the engine are greater than what the filter can flow at that point, I'll buy you a beer.

I'm very confident that you'll find the partially submerged filter could EASILY flow enough air. My basis for this, if you can run the same size K&N filter on a 300hp car at WOT and not have it be a restriction then I'm sure a 160hp engine at very low throttle could survive on less than half the filter without being choked out.

To recap, I'm not claiming you couldn't suck up water with needing enough airflow, I'm saying that at part throttle, lower rpm's you'll never have enough airflow to suck up water from a less than half submerged filter.

I'd also like to know where you got 271ml from... You don't necessarily have to fill the combustion chamber with water to hydrolock an engine.. You just have to put in enough water so that the cylinder pressure is too much for the piston or rod to handle. On an FI or high compression engine, it could be as low as 15ml, or it could be WAY more with stronger internals. Of course, if you totally fill the combustion chamber and then add some fuel/air, something is going to snap regardless of how strong anything is.

Sol_searchin

12-10-2007, 12:29 PM

But how do you know? when there are many people that have seen or have hydro locked there motors. Ive seen it happen and ive ripped apart a motor and ive seen a rod snapped in half so how do you justify yourself when I also kno and i have first hand experience.

i dont embarass myself. i dont need experience with hydrolocked engines to explain why this is very hard to have happen. i say what i say based on what i KNOW rather than what ive heard other people SAY.

fast50mpg

12-10-2007, 01:14 PM

wow youve seen a hydro locked motor before. were u there when it happened? did u take a picture of where the filter was in the water??? so many variables, kinda hard for u to say what happened now isnt it?

JPE16

12-10-2007, 05:40 PM

ugh...

first of all...pharoah is right, we've had a reasonably intelligent debate thus far without people crawling inside their ego's and coming out with personal insults. Secondly it would be really hard to find your way out of a wet paper bag...it would collapse all around you and you....wou'd have to guess which way was out....

anyway..in all seriousness....

fast50mpg, and parsons...you make good points about the length of tubing and lack of vacuum at partial throttle. The point about the time the water has access to the cylinders (270 degress of cam rotation)...there's quite alot of time for the water to find it's way into one cylinder..let alone 4 or more that are all being opened and closed at different times.

the fact that you admit that you're arguing about something you have no experience with, and that you're both "too lazy" to do the math kind of discredits your opinions....i dunno..but when i debated in h.s. for law any un substantiated information was immediatly thrown out if called into question...and not only is your information wrong, and unsubstantiated, but you readily admit you either don't know how to or are unwilling to find out the correct answer.

the bottom line is that water WILL NOT compress...the amount of water needed to hydrolock an engine is very small. If you were to take the volume of air left in the cylinder at tdc and add 2% (i'm doing this based on my 2.5l 4 cylinder again to remain consistant) that owuld be enough to stall the engine. It would not allow the motor to complete the revolution and the engine would stall....as for damage...that's speculative..and i'll leave that to the deisel chaps.

anyway...the point is that the amount of water needed is very small, and the vacuum being pulled by the motor at partial throttle is enough to suck that water up if submerged long enough. like i said there are many variables that's why you dont blow up ur motor everytime you go out in the rain with your cai.

In conclusion...it's easier that you think to hydrolock a motor...ON PAPER....fortunately the real world isnt made of paper...so the variables help keep you safe....just be extra careful with a cai in the rain and u'll be fine..and if you do stall due to hydrolock dont start the car...get the water out of there and get something like wd40 in...

wparsons

12-10-2007, 11:02 PM

At 2500rpm the engine is turning over 360* 41.67 times per second...

If you hit a puddle when you're moving, usually the bumper does a VERY good job of displacing the water around the car, making a cavity in the engine bay that wouldn't be as deep as the surrounding puddle.

As for adding 2% volume of water, I find that hard to believe it would stall the engine... Adding 2% of water still leaves 98% fuel/air. Thats with stock compression, no FI. If you were to turbo the engine, or raise the compression you'd get more than a 2% increase in volume in the cylinders(especially turbo'd), and that doesn't stall out the piston.

Anyway, we're done arguing.. I already agreed it was possible under ideal(or terribly un-ideal depending on the point of view) conditions, and you agreed that in real life its VERY unlikely for those conditions to happen.

JPE16

12-10-2007, 11:11 PM

"As for adding 2% volume of water, I find that hard to believe it would stall the engine... Adding 2% of water still leaves 98% fuel/air. Thats with stock compression, no FI. If you were to turbo the engine, or raise the compression you'd get more than a 2% increase in volume in the cylinders(especially turbo'd), and that doesn't stall out the piston."

lol...ur right..but you misunderstood what i said. or maybe i did a poor job expressing my point. If you took the volume left over between the top of the piston and bottom of the head at tdc...fill that space in with water...now add 2% of that volume to itself..anf that's enough to stall the motor and most likley do some significant damage. Water doesnt compress at all..so anything outside the allowable room is gonna make for a bad day.

after all this i guess i still have to go back to my original point. It doesnt take much water at all to hydrolock an engine...on paper it's easy..but the variables in the real world can both make it easier and more difficult in a myriad of ways....so if u have a cai...be careful in the wet...

Sol_searchin

12-10-2007, 11:43 PM

No actually it isnt, We were driving beside crosby VW 2 years ago roughly (isnt that were you work), And theres a dip on the right side of the road and there was a puddle roughly about half a foot deep and a meter long(roughly). Well my friend drove through it at a decent speed (he also had no splash sheild underneath bythe filter) and about a second later the motor started misfiring and it made a horible grinding noise and NEVER started or cranked again. Lesson learned? By the way we also figured the filter wouldnt have even touched the puddle because the car wasnt lowered and the filter was still located higher up. I still remember because ive never laughed so hard that hard in my life :) Ill ask about the pictures Im pretty sure we have a few ill ask my buddy

Oh and this was a honda lol

wow youve seen a hydro locked motor before. were u there when it happened? did u take a picture of where the filter was in the water??? so many variables, kinda hard for u to say what happened now isnt it?

fast50mpg

12-11-2007, 07:31 AM

this is like the blind leading the blind.

wparsons

12-11-2007, 08:56 AM

lol...ur right..but you misunderstood what i said. or maybe i did a poor job expressing my point. If you took the volume left over between the top of the piston and bottom of the head at tdc...fill that space in with water...now add 2% of that volume to itself..anf that's enough to stall the motor and most likley do some significant damage. Water doesnt compress at all..so anything outside the allowable room is gonna make for a bad day.

That makes A LOT more sense, I still stand by my point of that needing other factors like combustion chamber volume, how strong the engine is, etc.. But if you put enough water in there, something is bound to bend, break, shatter, etc.

Sol_searchin

12-11-2007, 09:40 AM

Or the mentally retarded leading a university classthis is like the blind leading the blind.

fast50mpg

12-11-2007, 03:18 PM

well however u guys wanna look at what youre saying, thats up to u

JPE16

12-11-2007, 04:25 PM

this is like the blind leading the blind.

it's funny you say that.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument from you. I told you, prove your point show me how much water it would take and what it would take to get it in there....

If it's different from the numbers I got we'll discuss it intelligently. BUt your comments hardly make you seem like a credible source, nor someone with the intelligence to back up his comments...or even someone who's actually interested in getting to the bottom of this...at this point it seems like ur more interested in being right than finding the truth....prove me wrong if you can.

If you're gonna call me dumb...at least show me that you're smarter.

fast50mpg

12-12-2007, 08:30 AM

it would be interesting to somehow set up a controlled experiment to see how much it takes.

JPE16

12-12-2007, 06:05 PM

we can use ur car.....:-P lol i think theres a video of aem with an nsx an a fish tank. but all that was, was them dunking the filter to see if their by-pass valve worked. so not really what we're looking fror...it's really not that hard to figure out mahtematically...just trying to figure out the amount of damage or end result is a little more speculative.

wparsons

12-12-2007, 11:20 PM

^^ I thought of that video too, but they dunk the entire filter in right away from what I remember.

JPE16

12-13-2007, 06:43 AM

..yeah...lol...doesnt really give us what we're lookin for....i'll figure it out and show my work tonight for the eclipse..maybe then it'll make more sense...

fast50mpg

12-13-2007, 09:30 AM

we need to find a junkyard car a build a cheapy intake and test different scenarios.

wparsons

12-13-2007, 10:08 AM

Or, find out what cfm the engine is sucking in at cruising throttle/rpm, and find a shop vac that produces the same cfm. Hook up that shop vac to a CAI, and dunk the filter until it sucks up water.

If we could find a length of clear piping that would be better, so we could see whats happening inside the tube, but thats tougher to come by.

SiR

12-13-2007, 11:46 AM

I would be willing to contribute to this experiment any way i can. This could prove useful information for many of us with CAI's.

Dima

12-13-2007, 11:57 AM

there's so much onformation about these cold ait intakes that it's not even funny, i've read somwhere that away the power from high compression engines

but hey, we caan alway buy a car from wrekers for $50 and do an experiment

fast50mpg

12-13-2007, 04:09 PM

it'd be fun more than anything.

JPE16

12-13-2007, 10:19 PM

Dima

12-14-2007, 09:09 AM

i'll call up few people i know.do we need to move it, or can we just all go there, give the guy $50 and fuck up his motor

Dima

12-14-2007, 09:12 AM

haha...yeah man for sure!

anyone know where we can get a 4 banger for $50?

"there's so much onformation about these cold ait intakes that it's not even funny, i've read somwhere that away the power from high compression engines

but hey, we caan alway buy a car from wrekers for $50 and do an experiment"

^^uhh.....what?

what you don't speak jiberish???lol
i read somewhere that cold air intakes and mufflers, can actually take away your horsepower instead of adding it like everyone thinks.i don't remember where i read it.they mentioned high compression engines too, like hondas.that everything is so balanced that when you play with air and exhaust it screws thing up. i don't see how really, but hey.....

Sebastien

12-14-2007, 09:37 AM

what you don't speak jiberish???lol
i read somewhere that cold air intakes and mufflers, can actually take away your horsepower instead of adding it like everyone thinks.i don't remember where i read it.they mentioned high compression engines too, like hondas.that everything is so balanced that when you play with air and exhaust it screws thing up. i don't see how really, but hey.....

That's false. 1/2 of the hondas don't even have 10:1 compression, that's not high at all for one. Secondly, intakes and exhaust are designed to help the engine breath better, which will allow it to free up any lost power from restricting it's flow. Bigger gains are seen on engines that rev high with abnormally restrictive exhausts.

Silver_EM

12-14-2007, 09:55 AM

that is why i run a sri all year. not taking ne chances.

Dima

12-14-2007, 09:58 AM

That's false. 1/2 of the hondas don't even have 10:1 compression, that's not high at all for one. Secondly, intakes and exhaust are designed to help the engine breath better, which will allow it to free up any lost power from restricting it's flow. Bigger gains are seen on engines that rev high with abnormally restrictive exhausts.

i thought 10:1 is higher compression isn't it? it not the highest but not the lowest either.anyways, that's what i just read, i got cai and muffler on my ZE and it purrs like a pussy cat.and i'm planning on putting the same mods on the new probe as well

Sebastien

12-14-2007, 12:43 PM

i thought 10:1 is higher compression isn't it? it not the highest but not the lowest either.anyways, that's what i just read, i got cai and muffler on my ZE and it purrs like a pussy cat.and i'm planning on putting the same mods on the new probe as well

In the 4 cylinder world anything under 10:1 isn't really high compression. Medium more or less. All D and F series (non S2k) are 9.5:1 at best, all B and H series start at 10.5:1.

2point2

12-14-2007, 01:36 PM

"High Compression" is relative to the engine in question. It has more to do with the knock threshold of an engine. The number of cylinders doesn't really matter. I think a zo6 vette is somewhere around 11:1 ?

example:
Engine A will start to knock at 11:1
Engine B will start to knock at 10:1

10.5:1 compression on engine A is "high".
9.5:1 compression on engine B is also "high".

JPE16

12-14-2007, 04:36 PM

it'd be fun more than anything.

"High Compression" is relative to the engine in question. It has more to do with the knock threshold of an engine. The number of cylinders doesn't really matter. I think a zo6 vette is somewhere around 11:1 ?

example:
Engine A will start to knock at 11:1
Engine B will start to knock at 10:1

10.5:1 compression on engine A is "high".
9.5:1 compression on engine B is also "high".

ding ding...we have someone that understands something! haha...nice explanation

wparsons

12-14-2007, 11:51 PM

Paul, the Z06 does run 11:1 compression.. The Ferrari F430 runs an even higher 11.3:1.. Even the 911 turbo runs 9:1.

I think the Audi 4.2 V8 FSI engine runs in the 12.5:1 neighborhood, which is damn high for a production car(gotta love FSI).

Sol_searchin

12-18-2007, 12:52 AM

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0104scc_aem_air_bypass_valve/index.html

read up guys!

SiR

12-18-2007, 01:11 AM

nice find!!!

fast50mpg

12-18-2007, 12:49 PM

its just that a car would never be stationary in a deep puddle like that. it'd be so hard to duplicate real life situations. looks good under controlled circumstances but that does nothing for the real world.

as far as compression ratio goes it isnt totally responsible for the knock threshold or whatever i saw someone say. its more the ignition timing and AKI rating of the fuel in relation to the C.R. that controls knock. back in the day of leaded fuel u could run high compression in a simple engine because of its resistance to detonation.

C.R.= total cylinder volume/total combustion chamber volume

2point2

12-18-2007, 10:09 PM

^ Not sure if I was able to decode that but let me try...

of course ign timing an octane control knock. The question was how to define "high compression". An elephants gestation period is 22 months.

force = mass x acceleration.

JPE16

12-18-2007, 10:48 PM

wparsons

12-20-2007, 07:38 AM

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0104scc_aem_air_bypass_valve/index.html

read up guys!

Except even that article says nothing about how unlikely of a situation you need to even suck up water, and just talks about how the bypass valve saves it if you FULLY submerge the filter, on a 250whp V6 thats doing a dyno run at WOT...

We cooked up a test that would replicate the absolute worst case senario: an underwater drag race. Dipping your filter into a puddle while idling into a driveway is one thing, but fully submerging it and then opening up the throttle and making full power is something else entirely. And if that full power happens to be 250 hp at the wheels, well... it doesn't get much worse than that.

http://images.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0104_01+Acura_NSX+Rear_Drivers_Side_View_AEM_Bypas s_valve_Test.jpg

fast50mpg

12-20-2007, 03:32 PM

^^ that would be net force.

and high compression, although it is tossed around alot is a relative term...because of different characteristics in different engine "shapes" a compression of say 10:1 could be considered high in one config. and just a starting point in another. A high compression motor would be typified by a few characterisitics:
- detonation free
- operates below, but close to knock threshold
- low combustion volume (another relative field to be defined)

pls add more...im too tired to think creatively.

its still an internal combustion engine. different characteristics or shapes are whats used to create a high or low compression engine. 8 to 1 is low and 11 or 12 or more would be high. doesnt matter what shape it is. every car operates below but near its knock threshold. thats why engines have variable ignition timing even back in the old days of vacuum advance. this allows the engine to operate at its peak horsepower and efficiency no matter what the load or fuel grade. what would u define low combustion volume as?

SiR

12-20-2007, 03:47 PM

Except even that article says nothing about how unlikely of a situation you need to even suck up water, and just talks about how the bypass valve saves it if you FULLY submerge the filter, on a 250whp V6 thats doing a dyno run at WOT...

http://images.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0104_01+Acura_NSX+Rear_Drivers_Side_View_AEM_Bypas s_valve_Test.jpg

except that they also simulated dunking it in and out, and not fully submerging it...and that's when they got the most terrifying results (I think...though I read it kinda fast...). So would that be like splashing it in and out of puddles going down a soaked, water covered road?

Sol_searchin

12-20-2007, 04:39 PM

I smell alotta bullshit in this thread LMAO lol u guys need to chill out its getting way out of hand it started at dans stupidity to water and cold air intake, then to compression ratios and now .....? honestly who cares you guys will argue forever and itll just keep going on to 1000+ pages but no one will admit there wrong or right. We all know what we know just leave it at that !

Pharaoh

12-20-2007, 04:44 PM

^^^My Stupidity??? take it easy man....I just drove through a puddle...

This thread has been doing pretty good guys, lets not ruin it now.

SiR

12-20-2007, 05:18 PM

I was enjoying this discussion...

2point2

12-20-2007, 06:32 PM

8 to 1 is low and 11 or 12 or more would be high.

I agree but there is more to it... I'd pick apart your replies but I feel like I'm wasting my time.

You're not taking into account that two completely different engines with the same c ratio are not equal even if the gas and ign timing is the same. I'm done with this thread.

JPE16

12-20-2007, 07:28 PM

"its still an internal combustion engine. different characteristics or shapes are whats used to create a high or low compression engine. 8 to 1 is low and 11 or 12 or more would be high. doesnt matter what shape it is. every car operates below but near its knock threshold. thats why engines have variable ignition timing even back in the old days of vacuum advance. this allows the engine to operate at its peak horsepower and efficiency no matter what the load or fuel grade. what would u define low combustion volume as?"

yes you're right, but perhaps if you thought of it as more of a percentage. The knock threshold being 100% and the entire volume of the cylinder being 0. This will help because....

"You're not taking into account that two completely different engines with the same c ratio are not equal even if the gas and ign timing is the same. I'm done with this thread."

different engines react differently to differnet cr's....so a cr of 11:1 would be commonly regarded as high.....it's not a set instone number u could always refer to as high compression for EVERY motor....think of it as a percentage of a whole...the closer u get to 100% the higher the compression....

and... yes this thread is great...really am enjoying the discussion....yeah we can go back and forth forever...but who cares..its winter..what else are we gonna do..it's intelligent and for the most part free of idiots...

wparsons

12-20-2007, 10:35 PM

except that they also simulated dunking it in and out, and not fully submerging it...and that's when they got the most terrifying results (I think...though I read it kinda fast...). So would that be like splashing it in and out of puddles going down a soaked, water covered road?

The dunking it in and out was still fully submerging it, they just started with it out, put it fully in and then removed it.

The scary part was when they removed it, the soaking wet filter let in splashes of water as it sucked in air(since before that, it was sucking in air through the bypass filter).